Bitten by Snakes or Snapping Turtles while Swimming?

[qquito]

Hello, All:

I am located in southern Virginia. This afternoon, I saw a small snake
in the water near the edge of a pond while taking a walk there. The
snake swam near the edge and, for a few moments, got further away from
the pond edge and deeper into the water; then it was trying to get out
of the water and stopped half way out of the water. It then returned
back to the water and disappeared---maybe because it noticed that I was
approaching.

There are also quite a few turtles in the pond, and I have seen ones of
maybe 6 to 8 inches in size. Could these be snapping turtles?

Two years ago, I also saw otters showing up in the pond.

My question is: If one swims in such a pond, can one get bitten by
either snakes, or snapping turtles, or even otters? Are there any real
cases of swimmers who got bitten by these animals?

--Roland

[Lar]

In article <***@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
***@hotmail.com says...
:) My question is: If one swims in such a pond, can one get bitten by
:) either snakes, or snapping turtles, or even otters? Are there any real
:) cases of swimmers who got bitten by these animals?
:)
:)
If you saw the turtles they probably weren't snapping turtles. Never
heard of anyone being bit if swimming, but if you were to take a break
and had your toes or fingers submerged near a turtle it might be
inclined to try a taste....snakes I would think you would have to
accidentally get tangled up with to invoke a bite...otters, doubt they
would allow you to get close enough for them to decide to attack.

[Stephen Henning]

Post by qquito
My question is: If one swims in such a pond, can one get bitten by
either snakes, or snapping turtles, or even otters? Are there any real
cases of swimmers who got bitten by these animals?

I am in SE PA. A college student here was leading a high school science
class on a ecology trip down a local creek. While he was wading waist
deep in the creek, all of a sudden something made a beeline toward him
"like a torpedo". He fought it off with his fists, but it managed to
bite him in the back side. Another student was bitten trying to help
him. They both had to get rabies shots. They think it was a muskrat,
either rabid or defending its young. The game commission said that they
do get rabid because sometimes a fox will attack them when they are
smaller.

Rabies shots today are different. No shots in the stomach. He got a
series of shots getting shot in both arms, both legs and the buttocks.
They are not pleasant, but less unpleasant. The other young man had to
be held down to get his shots.

[TOliver]

Post by qquito
I am located in southern Virginia. This afternoon, I saw a small snake
in the water near the edge of a pond while taking a walk there. The
snake swam near the edge and, for a few moments, got further away from
the pond edge and deeper into the water; then it was trying to get out
of the water and stopped half way out of the water. It then returned
back to the water and disappeared---maybe because it noticed that I was
approaching.
There are also quite a few turtles in the pond, and I have seen ones of
maybe 6 to 8 inches in size. Could these be snapping turtles?
Two years ago, I also saw otters showing up in the pond.
My question is: If one swims in such a pond, can one get bitten by
either snakes, or snapping turtles, or even otters? Are there any real
cases of swimmers who got bitten by these animals?

Snapping turtles are found in Virginia waters, but unless you chance upon
some sleeping giant the size of a 15" auto wheel (or bigger), recorded
attacks are few (but then, it's the unrecorded attacks which might raise
concerns, the attacked not around to file for the record). The snakes?
Having once been bitten by a teeny' little one while "gilling" for catfish,
in the Southern US, the "Cottonmouth" (for the bright light mucosa inside
wide-open mouths as they strike) water moccasin certainly is found in
Virginia, and a big one will ruin your day. A little one certainly
discomforted mine, and the legend in which snakes can't bite underwater is
only legend.

Snakes and turtles are desperately people-shy. Most ponds can be "safed"
for routine swimming by arriving with a lot of noise, carrying on and
popping beer cans, the mild screams of dates in insufficiently sized bathing
wear being groped, etc., but wise swimmers have been known to cut a branch
with which to beat the water before entering, sending snappers and snakes
a'flying.
Moccasins have ahabit od sunning themselves on limbs and dead brush
over-hanging creeks and ponds, waiting for the occasional meal-sized
wanderer to show up below. Most folks never see them. They are there, just
as Rattlers abound in the woods of Virginia, most unheard and unseen, since
the snakes will have long before heard the human invaders and attempted to
depart/hide. That's the danger of copperheads, hiding instead of moving,
and on occasion right where you're stepping/reaching.

Rumor has it that alligators are returning to some rivers in Southern
Virginia, but the return of beaver in substantial numbers has not been
accompanied by many frenzied beaver assaults on unwary swimmers.

TM "Doesn't taste much like chicken, either." Oliver

[Rodney Long]

Post by TOliver
Snakes and turtles are desperately people-shy. Most ponds can be "safed"
for routine swimming by arriving with a lot of noise,

Contrary to popular belief

Snakes "can't" hear, noise is a worthless means of trying to run them off

Look it up, they have no ears, or means of detecting sound, they can
feel vibrations, but not at the sound levels.

One day I was canoeing and a big Cotton Mouth was just 20 feet away on
the bank, I pulled out the trusted 22 automatic pistol to dispatch it.
The trouble was my wife was squirming and rocking the canoe, I missed 6
times, that snake never moved,( the sound of the 22 going off did not
even wake it up) until I finally hit it, then it moved, but just for a
couple of seconds :-)

[Don Freeman]

One day I was canoeing and a big Cotton Mouth was just 20 feet away on the
bank, I pulled out the trusted 22 automatic pistol to dispatch it.

Reason being?

[Rodney Long]

Post by Don Freeman

One day I was canoeing and a big Cotton Mouth was just 20 feet away on the
bank, I pulled out the trusted 22 automatic pistol to dispatch it.

Reason being?

They, and man, have no place together, a cotton mouth does not fear man,
and will attack, non provoked, I've had it happen to me more than once,
but I have always been able to avoid the strike, because I saw the snake
before it got in range. I even had one try to get in the boat with me,
because I was anchored across his path, I could not even beat him away
with a fishing rod, he kept fighting it and me, I ending up shooting
him, although he was in an area where he would not have harmed anyone
else,, he just would not leave, and would not keep from trying to get
into the boat with me, and I couldn't move the boat with the two anchors
out, I couldn't get them in and fight the snake off at the same time

I "NEVER" kill non poisonous snakes, (and I know the difference) and
only kill the poisonous ones when they are a threat, by just their
location, sometimes. a cotton mouth within 50 yds of a swimming area,
house, or area where people frequent, DIES ! It's not worth the chance
of someone getting bitten. If they were rare, perhaps I would catch and
transplant those that are on the bank in these areas, if it hits the
water, there is no catching them, and you will get bitten trying

[Don Freeman]

Post by Rodney Long

Post by Don Freeman

Post by Rodney Long
One day I was canoeing and a big Cotton Mouth was just 20 feet away on
the bank, I pulled out the trusted 22 automatic pistol to dispatch it.

Reason being?

They, and man, have no place together, a cotton mouth does not fear man,
and will attack, non provoked, I've had it happen to me more than once,

Yet you state that the snake was on the bank, and you were 20 ft away, on
the water, and in a boat. Now THAT sounds non-provoked.

[Rodney Long]

Post by Don Freeman
Yet you state that the snake was on the bank, and you were 20 ft away, on
the water, and in a boat. Now THAT sounds non-provoked.

Yep, I got him before he got me , or my wife, or my grand kids at a
latter time. I'm just helping to control the numbers of them around
humans, there are plenty of places for them where humans don't frequent.

This bad boy was over 6 feet long, very large and very old for a cotton
mouth

They no longer have any natural predators, there numbers must be
controlled, or "people" die. My state DNR has no problem with people
taking them out, they are far from rare, actually they are too numerous,
and they are just down right MEAN compared to other snakes, they are the
most aggressive snake in North America, one of the few that will come
after you, instead of fleeing.

I've been handling snakes for close to 40 years now, When I was in high
school, I made my extra money "catching" poisonous snakes, that were
milked, then released. I used to get 4 dollars a foot for them "alive".
I know them well, and the cotton mouth is just dangerous to have
anywhere near people. You will hear of people keeping all kinds of
poisonous snakes, but never cotton mouths. They offered 10 dollars a
foot for them captured, back when I was doing it, I know of three
people, who did what I did, (they were pros) that got bitten trying to
catch those demons (they were actively looking for cotton mouths, in
their habitat, all claimed they never saw the snakes, until after they
got nailed)

Yep I hate those particular snakes, Now I love rattlers, you got to
almost step on one to get bitten, and they even warn you when your close
to them. Copper heads are very shy, you will get bitten if you step over
a log, instead of on top of it, or if your getting fire wood off a
stack, without looking where your putting your hand. They will flee if
they get the chance, or if they see you before you get too close, put a
hand or foot close to them and your gonna get nailed, but you have to
startle them when you do it, otherwise they are heading the other direction.

[Don Freeman]

Post by Don Freeman
Yet you state that the snake was on the bank, and you were 20 ft away, on
the water, and in a boat. Now THAT sounds non-provoked.

Yep, I got him before he got me , or my wife, or my grand kids at a latter
time. I'm just helping to control the numbers of them around humans, there
are plenty of places for them where humans don't frequent.
This bad boy was over 6 feet long, very large and very old for a cotton
mouth
They no longer have any natural predators, there numbers must be
controlled, or "people" die. My state DNR has no problem with people
taking them out, they are far from rare, actually they are too numerous,
and they are just down right MEAN compared to other snakes, they are the
most aggressive snake in North America, one of the few that will come
after you, instead of fleeing.

Doing a search on "aggressive" and "cottonmouth" I find a lot of disparity
in opinions on wither the cottonmouth is actually aggressive or not.
Looking closer at the sources I find that the more reliable ones (as opposed
to joe blows blog site) tend to support the position that its aggressive
nature is not deserved. Regardless, the number of biting incidences is
incredibly low and the number of deaths from those bites minimal. Hardly
justifies killing every one you come across, especially if it poses no
threat to you.

[Rodney Long]

Post by Don Freeman
Doing a search on "aggressive" and "cottonmouth" I find a lot of disparity
in opinions on wither the cottonmouth is actually aggressive or not.
Looking closer at the sources I find that the more reliable ones (as opposed
to joe blows blog site) tend to support the position that its aggressive
nature is not deserved.

Man that sounds like the shark huggers (naturalist) who claim bull
sharks are not aggressive, they mistake humans for fish.

A couple of naturalist were proving that very fact a couple of years
ago, in knee deep water, with bull sharks all around them, and guess
what? one of them got nailed! on camera, yet they still claimed they are
not aggressive

California banned cougar hunting a few years back, and now people are
dying, while they are jogging in their neighborhoods

There are no "naturalist" that will claim any animal is aggressive
towards man, it's politically incorrect, and would cost them their jobs.

My feelings on the matter is from personal experience, not based on what
I have read somewhere, and I would bet Joe Blow's Blog site is based on
the same thing, his personal experiences

Post by Don Freeman
Regardless, the number of biting incidences is
incredibly low

Yep they are low,, because people like me keep them from places where
people are. That's why they are not protected by law, at least not here

Post by Don Freeman
and the number of deaths from those bites minimal.

Have you ever seen someone that survived a snake bite ? Go on the net
and take a look at the damage caused, how would you like your child to
go through that, because you thought that cotton mouth you saw the week
before, was no threat

Post by Don Freeman
Hardly
justifies killing every one you come across, especially if it poses no
threat to you.

I never said I kill everyone I see,, hardly, in some of the places I
fish I will see a dozen of them a day, hanging on limbs over the water,
these are some out of the way places, where few people go, and those who
do, know they are there, they also don't run their boats under tree
limbs :-)

Cotton mouths normally don't hang around clear banks, or open water,
they like it back in the feeder creaks, swamps, and the over grown
banks, where they can drop on their pray from limbs (few people get on
these banks, and fewer still swim in those areas) this is where the
cotton mouth has a place in nature, not on your swimming beach, under
your pier, or in your back yard

[Don Freeman]

Post by Don Freeman
Doing a search on "aggressive" and "cottonmouth" I find a lot of
disparity in opinions on wither the cottonmouth is actually aggressive or
not. Looking closer at the sources I find that the more reliable ones (as
opposed to joe blows blog site) tend to support the position that its
aggressive nature is not deserved.

Man that sounds like the shark huggers (naturalist) who claim bull sharks
are not aggressive, they mistake humans for fish.
A couple of naturalist were proving that very fact a couple of years ago,
in knee deep water, with bull sharks all around them, and guess what? one
of them got nailed! on camera, yet they still claimed they are not
aggressive

Well duh, and if you walk into a pit of even the most timid snakes you are
bound to annoy at least one of them.

California banned cougar hunting a few years back, and now people are
dying, while they are jogging in their neighborhoods

Oh yeah, they're killing us left and right out here, can't walk to the
corner market without being attacked. That's why there are so many humvees
and other forms of SUVs in my neighborhood: to protects us from all the
unwarranted feline attention.

For a little perspective:
http://california.sierraclub.org/mountain-lion/safety.html

"Your risk of being injured or killed by a mountain lion is infinitesimal.
There have been only 13 fatal mountain lion attacks in all of North America
in the last 100 years. Eleven of the fatal attacks occurred in western
states and provinces where trophy hunting of lions is allowed. According to
the Department of Fish and Game's own records, in the last 20 years more
than 85 people have died and 700 people have been injured in hunting
accidents in California. For every person killed by a mountain lion in the
last century, 300 people have been killed by bees,. 750 people have died
when their cars collided with deer, 1200 people have been killed by
lightning, and more than 1100 people were killed in hunting-related
accidents. Hunting presents a much greater threat to public safety than
mountain lions."

My feelings on the matter is from personal experience, not based on what I
have read somewhere, and I would bet Joe Blow's Blog site is based on the
same thing, his personal experiences

More likely to have been based on apocryphal/anecdotal incidences. Which,
ironically enough, turns this thread on-topic for this group.

[Calif Bill]

Post by Don Freeman

Post by Don Freeman
Doing a search on "aggressive" and "cottonmouth" I find a lot of
disparity in opinions on wither the cottonmouth is actually aggressive
or not. Looking closer at the sources I find that the more reliable ones
(as opposed to joe blows blog site) tend to support the position that
its aggressive nature is not deserved.

Man that sounds like the shark huggers (naturalist) who claim bull sharks
are not aggressive, they mistake humans for fish.
A couple of naturalist were proving that very fact a couple of years ago,
in knee deep water, with bull sharks all around them, and guess what? one
of them got nailed! on camera, yet they still claimed they are not
aggressive

Well duh, and if you walk into a pit of even the most timid snakes you are
bound to annoy at least one of them.

California banned cougar hunting a few years back, and now people are
dying, while they are jogging in their neighborhoods

Oh yeah, they're killing us left and right out here, can't walk to the
corner market without being attacked. That's why there are so many
humvees and other forms of SUVs in my neighborhood: to protects us from
all the unwarranted feline attention.
http://california.sierraclub.org/mountain-lion/safety.html
"Your risk of being injured or killed by a mountain lion is infinitesimal.
There have been only 13 fatal mountain lion attacks in all of North
America in the last 100 years. Eleven of the fatal attacks occurred in
western states and provinces where trophy hunting of lions is allowed.
According to the Department of Fish and Game's own records, in the last 20
years more than 85 people have died and 700 people have been injured in
hunting accidents in California. For every person killed by a mountain
lion in the last century, 300 people have been killed by bees,. 750 people
have died when their cars collided with deer, 1200 people have been killed
by lightning, and more than 1100 people were killed in hunting-related
accidents. Hunting presents a much greater threat to public safety than
mountain lions."

My feelings on the matter is from personal experience, not based on what
I have read somewhere, and I would bet Joe Blow's Blog site is based on
the same thing, his personal experiences

More likely to have been based on apocryphal/anecdotal incidences.
Which, ironically enough, turns this thread on-topic for this group.
--
-Don "whose signature link is even more appropriate" Freeman
http://cosmoslair.com/BadDay.html ?
(Eating the elephant outside the box, one paradigm at a time)

And the Sierra club is full of shit! There were only about 2 deaths from
Mt. Lions until they were put on the protected list. They are not
endangered, they are fairly common. They have about wiped out the
California Big Horn sheep in a few areas. We a lot living in the San
Francisco Bay area hills.

[Don Freeman]

Post by Calif Bill

Post by Don Freeman

Post by Rodney Long
California banned cougar hunting a few years back, and now people are
dying, while they are jogging in their neighborhoods

Oh yeah, they're killing us left and right out here, can't walk to the
corner market without being attacked. That's why there are so many
humvees and other forms of SUVs in my neighborhood: to protects us from
all the unwarranted feline attention.
http://california.sierraclub.org/mountain-lion/safety.html
"Your risk of being injured or killed by a mountain lion is
infinitesimal. There have been only 13 fatal mountain lion attacks in all
of North America in the last 100 years. Eleven of the fatal attacks
occurred in western states and provinces where trophy hunting of lions is
allowed. According to the Department of Fish and Game's own records, in
the last 20 years more than 85 people have died and 700 people have been
injured in hunting accidents in California. For every person killed by a
mountain lion in the last century, 300 people have been killed by bees,.
750 people have died when their cars collided with deer, 1200 people have
been killed by lightning, and more than 1100 people were killed in
hunting-related accidents. Hunting presents a much greater threat to
public safety than mountain lions."

And the Sierra club is full of shit! There were only about 2 deaths from
Mt. Lions until they were put on the protected list. They are not
endangered, they are fairly common. They have about wiped out the
California Big Horn sheep in a few areas. We a lot living in the San
Francisco Bay area hills.

Then you are saying that they misquoted the California Fish & Game? Or is
the F&G full of shit too? Do you have anything to back your statements up
with?

I live there too, and the only accounts of Mountain Lions are in areas where
people have moved into their range. Or are forced out and into other areas
habituated by people. Such as the recent sightings in Walnut Creek.
http://cbs5.com/pets/local_story_190171231.html none of which posed any
danger.

[Calif Bill]

Post by Don Freeman

Post by Calif Bill

Post by Don Freeman

Post by Rodney Long
California banned cougar hunting a few years back, and now people are
dying, while they are jogging in their neighborhoods

Oh yeah, they're killing us left and right out here, can't walk to the
corner market without being attacked. That's why there are so many
humvees and other forms of SUVs in my neighborhood: to protects us from
all the unwarranted feline attention.
http://california.sierraclub.org/mountain-lion/safety.html
"Your risk of being injured or killed by a mountain lion is
infinitesimal. There have been only 13 fatal mountain lion attacks in
all of North America in the last 100 years. Eleven of the fatal attacks
occurred in western states and provinces where trophy hunting of lions
is allowed. According to the Department of Fish and Game's own records,
in the last 20 years more than 85 people have died and 700 people have
been injured in hunting accidents in California. For every person killed
by a mountain lion in the last century, 300 people have been killed by
bees,. 750 people have died when their cars collided with deer, 1200
people have been killed by lightning, and more than 1100 people were
killed in hunting-related accidents. Hunting presents a much greater
threat to public safety than mountain lions."

And the Sierra club is full of shit! There were only about 2 deaths from
Mt. Lions until they were put on the protected list. They are not
endangered, they are fairly common. They have about wiped out the
California Big Horn sheep in a few areas. We a lot living in the San
Francisco Bay area hills.

Then you are saying that they misquoted the California Fish & Game? Or is
the F&G full of shit too? Do you have anything to back your statements up
with?
I live there too, and the only accounts of Mountain Lions are in areas
where people have moved into their range. Or are forced out and into other
areas habituated by people. Such as the recent sightings in Walnut Creek.
http://cbs5.com/pets/local_story_190171231.html none of which posed any
danger.
--
-Don
http://cosmoslair.com/BadDay.html ?
(Eating the elephant outside the box, one paradigm at a time)

The Calif. F&G is full of shit also. Look at the bad science and the
MLPA's. Bought and paid for by Environazis! Walnut Creek has been a large
population center for years, backing up to Mt. Diablo. Why are these lions
no danger to the populace? They do not like Burb people? Pleasanton Ridge
has several lions. Lots of hikers and bikers. and is between Pleasanton
with 80,000 people and Hayward with even more.

[Bob Ward]

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 05:46:56 GMT, "Calif Bill"

Post by Calif Bill
The Calif. F&G is full of shit also. Look at the bad science and the
MLPA's. Bought and paid for by Environazis! Walnut Creek has been a large
population center for years, backing up to Mt. Diablo. Why are these lions
no danger to the populace? They do not like Burb people? Pleasanton Ridge
has several lions. Lots of hikers and bikers. and is between Pleasanton
with 80,000 people and Hayward with even more.

Show us the facts. EXACTLY how many people can you demonstrate have
been attacked in the area you are blathering about?

[TOliver]

Post by Bob Ward
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 05:46:56 GMT, "Calif Bill"

Post by Calif Bill
The Calif. F&G is full of shit also. Look at the bad science and the
MLPA's. Bought and paid for by Environazis! Walnut Creek has been a large
population center for years, backing up to Mt. Diablo. Why are these lions
no danger to the populace? They do not like Burb people? Pleasanton Ridge
has several lions. Lots of hikers and bikers. and is between Pleasanton
with 80,000 people and Hayward with even more.

Show us the facts. EXACTLY how many people can you demonstrate have
been attacked in the area you are blathering about?

The fact that both of you are acting as flaming assholes hardly negates the
need for rational discussion re: lions.

First, as with a dozen other noticeable species, the puma/cougar/lion has
altered its behavior in recent years, over time adjusting itself lifestyle
and range to the presence of humans - not to the extent that coyotes have -
but in essence beginning to reclaim range it had once abandoned. Food
sources obviously play a part in the "re-spread" of lion habitat and the
growth in the number of lions about. Hunting likely never diminished the
number of lions as much as did loss of habitat, and "learning"/adapting to
new "dietary supplements" helps keep cubs alive and able to grow into
adulthood and reproduce (although finding a mate remain desperately
difficult for many lions, isolated by their solitary habits).

Generally speaking, lions are unlikely to seek close contact with people,
and given their coloration and stealth, folks could walk within a few feet
of a lion, never aware of its presence.

There are some ringers which may cause that equation to imbalance.

A female with cubs nearby may react in a fashion quite different from
"normal".

Any lion which as spent much of its life in proximity to frequent human
activity may, just as even gentle pets do, lash out defensively at a human
who appears as threatening. Why a lion perceives a specific individual or
instance as threatening, we don't know. Ask the lions. I've not know any
"Lion Whisperers" of repute in that area.

Some "experts" have with reason claimed that lions see joggers and bike
riders as something other than humans, the rapid movement or the vehicle
altering the appearance, causing the lion to view the rider or runner as
potential prey.

Others view these sort of attacks in simpler perspective, that runners and
riders confront less than wary lions more quickly than us simple plodders
wandering about, obviously human by our smell and not fast enough to be
athreat. By Golly, I might bite a bike rider who arrived unannounced on my
porch as I was napping during the day in the warm sun, a lionish thing to
do.

The inevitable result....More people in more places added to some resurgence
in lion population along with reclamation of former range simply means there
will be more attacks, and with a video cam, station vehicle and helo waiting
breathlessly for every human or animal tragedy, the events will be covered.

TM "Don't bike with pumas, and don't send your three year old out to play
with the coyotes either." Oliver

[Calif Bill]

Post by TOliver

Post by Bob Ward
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 05:46:56 GMT, "Calif Bill"

Post by Calif Bill
The Calif. F&G is full of shit also. Look at the bad science and the
MLPA's. Bought and paid for by Environazis! Walnut Creek has been a large
population center for years, backing up to Mt. Diablo. Why are these lions
no danger to the populace? They do not like Burb people? Pleasanton Ridge
has several lions. Lots of hikers and bikers. and is between Pleasanton
with 80,000 people and Hayward with even more.

Show us the facts. EXACTLY how many people can you demonstrate have
been attacked in the area you are blathering about?

The fact that both of you are acting as flaming assholes hardly negates
the need for rational discussion re: lions.
First, as with a dozen other noticeable species, the puma/cougar/lion has
altered its behavior in recent years, over time adjusting itself lifestyle
and range to the presence of humans - not to the extent that coyotes
have - but in essence beginning to reclaim range it had once abandoned.
Food sources obviously play a part in the "re-spread" of lion habitat and
the growth in the number of lions about. Hunting likely never diminished
the number of lions as much as did loss of habitat, and
"learning"/adapting to new "dietary supplements" helps keep cubs alive and
able to grow into adulthood and reproduce (although finding a mate remain
desperately difficult for many lions, isolated by their solitary habits).
Generally speaking, lions are unlikely to seek close contact with people,
and given their coloration and stealth, folks could walk within a few feet
of a lion, never aware of its presence.
There are some ringers which may cause that equation to imbalance.
A female with cubs nearby may react in a fashion quite different from
"normal".
Any lion which as spent much of its life in proximity to frequent human
activity may, just as even gentle pets do, lash out defensively at a human
who appears as threatening. Why a lion perceives a specific individual or
instance as threatening, we don't know. Ask the lions. I've not know any
"Lion Whisperers" of repute in that area.
Some "experts" have with reason claimed that lions see joggers and bike
riders as something other than humans, the rapid movement or the vehicle
altering the appearance, causing the lion to view the rider or runner as
potential prey.
Others view these sort of attacks in simpler perspective, that runners and
riders confront less than wary lions more quickly than us simple plodders
wandering about, obviously human by our smell and not fast enough to be
athreat. By Golly, I might bite a bike rider who arrived unannounced on
my porch as I was napping during the day in the warm sun, a lionish thing
to do.
The inevitable result....More people in more places added to some
resurgence in lion population along with reclamation of former range
simply means there will be more attacks, and with a video cam, station
vehicle and helo waiting breathlessly for every human or animal tragedy,
the events will be covered.
TM "Don't bike with pumas, and don't send your three year old out to play
with the coyotes either." Oliver

The lions have also lost fear of humans. And why are acting like a flaming
asshole?

[Lon]

Post by Calif Bill

Post by TOliver

Post by Bob Ward
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 05:46:56 GMT, "Calif Bill"

TM "Don't bike with pumas, and don't send your three year old out to play
with the coyotes either." Oliver

The lions have also lost fear of humans. And why are acting like a flaming
asshole?

I think he was asking you that question...

[Louise Bremner]

Post by Calif Bill
The lions have also lost fear of humans. And why are acting like a
flaming asshole

Maybe you haven't noticed that this thread is cross-posted to several
different groups. Presumably the one you're posting from has different
customs from the one I'm reading it in.

________________________________________________________________________
Louise "thank heavens" Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!

[Calif Bill]

Post by Louise Bremner

Post by Calif Bill
The lions have also lost fear of humans. And why are acting like a
flaming asshole

Maybe you haven't noticed that this thread is cross-posted to several
different groups. Presumably the one you're posting from has different
customs from the one I'm reading it in.
________________________________________________________________________
Louise "thank heavens" Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!

And you believe in selective editing?

[Louise Bremner]

Post by Calif Bill
And you believe in selective editing?

Indeed.

________________________________________________________________________
Louise "different customs" Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!

[Calif Bill]

Post by Louise Bremner

Post by Calif Bill
And you believe in selective editing?

Indeed.
________________________________________________________________________
Louise "different customs" Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!

A reporter for the Washington Post?

[Lon]

Post by TOliver

Post by Bob Ward
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 05:46:56 GMT, "Calif Bill"

Post by Calif Bill
The Calif. F&G is full of shit also. Look at the bad science and the
MLPA's. Bought and paid for by Environazis! Walnut Creek has been a large
population center for years, backing up to Mt. Diablo. Why are these lions
no danger to the populace? They do not like Burb people? Pleasanton Ridge
has several lions. Lots of hikers and bikers. and is between Pleasanton
with 80,000 people and Hayward with even more.

Show us the facts. EXACTLY how many people can you demonstrate have
been attacked in the area you are blathering about?

The fact that both of you are acting as flaming assholes hardly negates the
need for rational discussion re: lions.

It is tough. They are big huge, really beautiful animals. They are
also big huge catlike creatures and as likely to injure humans with play
behavior as attack behavior. Got a scar on the back of my left hand
from a playing roughhouse with a 2 year old female when a teenager.

Post by TOliver
First, as with a dozen other noticeable species, the puma/cougar/lion has
altered its behavior in recent years, over time adjusting itself lifestyle
and range to the presence of humans - not to the extent that coyotes have -
but in essence beginning to reclaim range it had once abandoned. Food
sources obviously play a part in the "re-spread" of lion habitat and the
growth in the number of lions about. Hunting likely never diminished the
number of lions as much as did loss of habitat, and "learning"/adapting to
new "dietary supplements" helps keep cubs alive and able to grow into
adulthood and reproduce (although finding a mate remain desperately
difficult for many lions, isolated by their solitary habits).
Generally speaking, lions are unlikely to seek close contact with people,
and given their coloration and stealth, folks could walk within a few feet
of a lion, never aware of its presence.

It is a genuine moment when you are wandering places like the Utah
canyons and move up a shelf and discover very fresh cougar tracks where
one has obviously been just a few feet above your head watching you.

Post by TOliver
There are some ringers which may cause that equation to imbalance.
A female with cubs nearby may react in a fashion quite different from
"normal".

They are also naturally playful like many predators. I wouldn't go so
far as to claim they are just overgrown cats, but I have first hand
knowledge of watching a friend's [the local game warden] kitten grow up
and playing with it... with a few scars as evidence. Plus they were all
over the place on the mountain behind our house and we coud watch them
play around with other animals they obviously had no real interest in
eating. Unfortunately, they tend to be pretty intelligent but somehow
fail to grasp that humans are not as rugged as their fellow lions are
when horse playing. And they will take a run at pretty much anything
going by. Some claim is triggering of hunting behavior....having seen
them "attack" a moving hay fork, I'd be more likely to believe is play
behavior that tends to have fairly severe consequences for the ball of
string.

Post by TOliver
Any lion which as spent much of its life in proximity to frequent human
activity may, just as even gentle pets do, lash out defensively at a human
who appears as threatening. Why a lion perceives a specific individual or
instance as threatening, we don't know. Ask the lions. I've not know any
"Lion Whisperers" of repute in that area.

As noted, even a lion that grew up around humans and was adopted by a
Great Dane tends to be somewhat disastrously playful even when well
fed... a luxury available only to lions that DO live near overly
available food sources--those left carelessly around by humans.

Post by TOliver
Some "experts" have with reason claimed that lions see joggers and bike
riders as something other than humans, the rapid movement or the vehicle
altering the appearance, causing the lion to view the rider or runner as
potential prey.

.. or large balls of string.

Post by TOliver
Others view these sort of attacks in simpler perspective, that runners and
riders confront less than wary lions more quickly than us simple plodders
wandering about, obviously human by our smell and not fast enough to be
athreat. By Golly, I might bite a bike rider who arrived unannounced on my
porch as I was napping during the day in the warm sun, a lionish thing to
do.

I'd agree with this, if something big moves slowly in their direction
they will tend to just as slowly move away, trying not to break
cover--if they are not hunting the big item in question. But if it is
moving too fast, it can trigger hunting/playing [not convinced there is
a difference] behavior as well as possibly startle them--which is NOT a
survival move.

Post by TOliver
The inevitable result....More people in more places added to some resurgence
in lion population along with reclamation of former range simply means there
will be more attacks, and with a video cam, station vehicle and helo waiting
breathlessly for every human or animal tragedy, the events will be covered.

And are they ever. Typically with prattling about how much easier prey
humans are than deer and how wounded or sick animals are far more likely
to go after humans rather than risk getting their butts kicked by deer.

Post by TOliver
TM "Don't bike with pumas, and don't send your three year old out to play
with the coyotes either." Oliver

Don't wrestle with them either.

[Lon]

Post by Bob Ward
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 05:46:56 GMT, "Calif Bill"

Post by Calif Bill
The Calif. F&G is full of shit also. Look at the bad science and the
MLPA's. Bought and paid for by Environazis! Walnut Creek has been a large
population center for years, backing up to Mt. Diablo. Why are these lions
no danger to the populace? They do not like Burb people? Pleasanton Ridge
has several lions. Lots of hikers and bikers. and is between Pleasanton
with 80,000 people and Hayward with even more.

Show us the facts. EXACTLY how many people can you demonstrate have
been attacked in the area you are blathering about?

I live in the greater San Jose Bay Area too, and every time someone even
spots a hunk of what might be cougar doo-doo, the local snooze stations
go berserk with reports of the incident and the spotting and "useful"
cautions and numbers to call and such. I haven't seen as many reports
from the eastern hills as from around such places as the Stanford campus
area, Los Altos Hills, and just down the street a coupla blocks.
Perhaps the western hill mountain lions are more visible than the ones
up behind the east bay?

Actual number of attacks, a coupla orders of magnitude less than the
number of instances of abject stupidity and use of the word "shit".

[r***@pacific.net.sg]

Post by Lon
I live in the greater San Jose Bay Area too, and every time someone even
spots a hunk of what might be cougar doo-doo, the local snooze stations
go berserk with reports of the incident and the spotting and "useful"
cautions and numbers to call and such. I haven't seen as many reports
from the eastern hills as from around such places as the Stanford campus
area, Los Altos Hills, and just down the street a coupla blocks.
Perhaps the western hill mountain lions are more visible than the ones
up behind the east bay?

Might be the topography. Sea, hills, I-280, towns, 101, Bay all running
parallel like stripes West to east. When the cats come out of the hills
they end up on the freeway (one killed soem months back, someone saw
another 2 mths ago). If they cross the 280 theyre in some town or
other. looks like cover but its someones yard.

[Lon]

Post by Don Freeman

Post by Don Freeman
Doing a search on "aggressive" and "cottonmouth" I find a lot of
disparity in opinions on wither the cottonmouth is actually aggressive or
not. Looking closer at the sources I find that the more reliable ones (as
opposed to joe blows blog site) tend to support the position that its
aggressive nature is not deserved.

Man that sounds like the shark huggers (naturalist) who claim bull sharks
are not aggressive, they mistake humans for fish.
A couple of naturalist were proving that very fact a couple of years ago,
in knee deep water, with bull sharks all around them, and guess what? one
of them got nailed! on camera, yet they still claimed they are not
aggressive

Well duh, and if you walk into a pit of even the most timid snakes you are
bound to annoy at least one of them.

California banned cougar hunting a few years back, and now people are
dying, while they are jogging in their neighborhoods

Oh yeah, they're killing us left and right out here, can't walk to the
corner market without being attacked. That's why there are so many humvees
and other forms of SUVs in my neighborhood: to protects us from all the
unwarranted feline attention.
http://california.sierraclub.org/mountain-lion/safety.html
"Your risk of being injured or killed by a mountain lion is infinitesimal.
There have been only 13 fatal mountain lion attacks in all of North America
in the last 100 years. Eleven of the fatal attacks occurred in western
states and provinces where trophy hunting of lions is allowed. According to
the Department of Fish and Game's own records, in the last 20 years more
than 85 people have died and 700 people have been injured in hunting
accidents in California. For every person killed by a mountain lion in the
last century, 300 people have been killed by bees,. 750 people have died
when their cars collided with deer, 1200 people have been killed by
lightning, and more than 1100 people were killed in hunting-related
accidents. Hunting presents a much greater threat to public safety than
mountain lions."

In other words, your risk of being injured or killed by a mountain lion
is orders of magnitude smaller than it is of being mistaken for an
aggressive snake and being offed by a trusty .22 handgun.

Post by Don Freeman

My feelings on the matter is from personal experience, not based on what I
have read somewhere, and I would bet Joe Blow's Blog site is based on the
same thing, his personal experiences

More likely to have been based on apocryphal/anecdotal incidences. Which,
ironically enough, turns this thread on-topic for this group.

Never attribute that to folklore which is more obviously explained by
abject total and willful ignorance.

[Lon]

Post by Don Freeman

Post by Don Freeman
Yet you state that the snake was on the bank, and you were 20 ft away, on
the water, and in a boat. Now THAT sounds non-provoked.

Yep, I got him before he got me , or my wife, or my grand kids at a latter
time. I'm just helping to control the numbers of them around humans, there
are plenty of places for them where humans don't frequent.
This bad boy was over 6 feet long, very large and very old for a cotton
mouth
They no longer have any natural predators, there numbers must be
controlled, or "people" die. My state DNR has no problem with people
taking them out, they are far from rare, actually they are too numerous,
and they are just down right MEAN compared to other snakes, they are the
most aggressive snake in North America, one of the few that will come
after you, instead of fleeing.

Doing a search on "aggressive" and "cottonmouth" I find a lot of disparity
in opinions on wither the cottonmouth is actually aggressive or not.
Looking closer at the sources I find that the more reliable ones (as opposed
to joe blows blog site) tend to support the position that its aggressive
nature is not deserved. Regardless, the number of biting incidences is
incredibly low and the number of deaths from those bites minimal. Hardly
justifies killing every one you come across, especially if it poses no
threat to you.

But Don, it was large and old! Pay attention dammit! And it was a
threat to him and his wife and his unborn grandchildren! And it was
MEAN! And obviously intelligent, having survived all previous risks
other than the idiot factor--that alone can be a danger to some folk.

[Hal Murray]

Post by Rodney Long
This bad boy was over 6 feet long, very large and very old for a cotton
mouth
They no longer have any natural predators, there numbers must be
controlled, or "people" die. My state DNR has no problem with people
taking them out, they are far from rare, actually they are too numerous,
and they are just down right MEAN compared to other snakes, they are the
most aggressive snake in North America, one of the few that will come
after you, instead of fleeing.

What were the natural predators?

[Lon]

Post by Don Freeman

Post by Rodney Long

Post by Don Freeman

Post by Rodney Long
One day I was canoeing and a big Cotton Mouth was just 20 feet away on
the bank, I pulled out the trusted 22 automatic pistol to dispatch it.

Reason being?

They, and man, have no place together, a cotton mouth does not fear man,
and will attack, non provoked, I've had it happen to me more than once,

Yet you state that the snake was on the bank, and you were 20 ft away, on
the water, and in a boat. Now THAT sounds non-provoked.

I think he misunderstood the snake's motivation. The snake was really
trying to protect him from the Killer Rabbit that was trying to crawl
into the boat from the other side.

[Don Freeman]

Post by Lon

Post by Don Freeman

Post by Rodney Long

Post by Don Freeman

Post by Rodney Long
One day I was canoeing and a big Cotton Mouth was just 20 feet away on
the bank, I pulled out the trusted 22 automatic pistol to dispatch it.

Reason being?

They, and man, have no place together, a cotton mouth does not fear man,
and will attack, non provoked, I've had it happen to me more than once,

Yet you state that the snake was on the bank, and you were 20 ft away, on
the water, and in a boat. Now THAT sounds non-provoked.

I think he misunderstood the snake's motivation. The snake was really
trying to protect him from the Killer Rabbit that was trying to crawl into
the boat from the other side.

OK Lon. Do I need to remind you that there is a BoMP in place here?

[Lee Ayrton]

Post by Don Freeman

Post by Lon

Post by Don Freeman
Yet you state that the snake was on the bank, and you were 20 ft away, on
the water, and in a boat. Now THAT sounds non-provoked.

I think he misunderstood the snake's motivation. The snake was really
trying to protect him from the Killer Rabbit that was trying to crawl into
the boat from the other side.

OK Lon. Do I need to remind you that there is a BoMP in place here?

Jimmy Carter was an MP?

[Lon]

Post by Don Freeman

Post by Lon

Post by Don Freeman

Post by Rodney Long

Post by Don Freeman

Post by Rodney Long
One day I was canoeing and a big Cotton Mouth was just 20 feet away on
the bank, I pulled out the trusted 22 automatic pistol to dispatch it.

Reason being?

They, and man, have no place together, a cotton mouth does not fear man,
and will attack, non provoked, I've had it happen to me more than once,

Yet you state that the snake was on the bank, and you were 20 ft away, on
the water, and in a boat. Now THAT sounds non-provoked.

I think he misunderstood the snake's motivation. The snake was really
trying to protect him from the Killer Rabbit that was trying to crawl into
the boat from the other side.

OK Lon. Do I need to remind you that there is a BoMP in place here?

Wouldn't that be a BoFPJC anecdotes? [1]

[1] To skirt the BOA, Former President...

[jmcgill]

Post by Don Freeman

One day I was canoeing and a big Cotton Mouth was just 20 feet away on the
bank, I pulled out the trusted 22 automatic pistol to dispatch it.

Reason being?

Being out with the pistol, he was itching to shoot it at something.

[Rodney Long]

Post by jmcgill
Being out with the pistol, he was itching to shoot it at something.

Not at all, I'm always "now" out with a pistol, I rarely shoot anything

The reason for that is this http://ezknot.com/raccoon.html

It's a funny story now, but it was not when it happened

[~ janj]

Post by Rodney Long
Not at all, I'm always "now" out with a pistol, I rarely shoot anything
The reason for that is this http://ezknot.com/raccoon.html
It's a funny story now, but it was not when it happened

Wow. Reminds me of the time we had a mangy-looking skunk in the
neighborhood with a definite problem! It was out in broad daylight in my
front yard chewing on the grass. Maypies were flying down pecking at it.
The kids in the neighborhood (residential street in city limits) were about
to get out of school. My neighbor called all "the authorities" and got no
where. So he took matters into his own hands. Since he would be fined
heavily for discharging a firearm, he dropped a big rock on its head.

No one could open their windows that evening, but our kids were safe.

Today the authorities wouldn't pull that off for long, as one of the local
news stations now does a troubleshooting section called "What makes you
mad?" Where local citizens can call and complain. This show has cleared and
gotten the slow moving bureaucracy stepping up. ~ jan
-----------------

Also ponding troll free at:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium

[daytripper]

Post by jmcgill

Post by Don Freeman

One day I was canoeing and a big Cotton Mouth was just 20 feet away on the
bank, I pulled out the trusted 22 automatic pistol to dispatch it.

Reason being?

Being out with the pistol, he was itching to shoot it at something.

"It's coming right at us!" ;-)

[David Simpson]

Post by Rodney Long

Post by TOliver
Snakes and turtles are desperately people-shy. Most ponds can be "safed"
for routine swimming by arriving with a lot of noise,

Contrary to popular belief
Snakes "can't" hear, noise is a worthless means of trying to run them off
Look it up, they have no ears, or means of detecting sound, they can
feel vibrations, but not at the sound levels.
One day I was canoeing and a big Cotton Mouth was just 20 feet away on
the bank, I pulled out the trusted 22 automatic pistol to dispatch it.
The trouble was my wife was squirming and rocking the canoe, I missed 6
times, that snake never moved,( the sound of the 22 going off did not
even wake it up) until I finally hit it, then it moved, but just for a
couple of seconds :-)

Don't try that in Australia. All snakes are protected here.

[Rodney Long]

Post by David Simpson
Don't try that in Australia. All snakes are protected here.

I understand that the animals have more rights than people down there,
no law against a snake or crock, killing a man, or even a small child.

How many people a year down there die to snakes, and crocks ?

Every snake in the world is not worth the life of one of my grand children.

I also understand that a gang of thugs can beat you to death, or rape
your daughter, and they won't let you have a gun to protect yourself, or
her, if you do have one and use it to save your life, they put you in jail.

No thanks, I'll stay here, you can have all those poisonous snakes in
your yards, and let them bite your kids, instead of killing them before
it happens.

Do you protect your spiders as well ? WHy not ? How about roaches,
flies, ants, and mosquitos

[David Simpson]

Post by Rodney Long

Post by David Simpson
Don't try that in Australia. All snakes are protected here.

I understand that the animals have more rights than people down there,
no law against a snake or crock, killing a man, or even a small child.

We do enact a death penalty if needed. Relocation usually does the
trick.

Post by Rodney Long
How many people a year down there die to snakes, and crocks ?

Snakes? About one every few years in spite of the fact that we have
the deadliest species on the planet and the greatest number of
venomous species.

Crocs? Maybe one or two a year. Some people are stupid enough to swim,
or play, where the croc can get at them. Crocs are extremely fast on
land ... for a very short distance.

Post by Rodney Long
Every snake in the world is not worth the life of one of my grand children.

So! Keep the kids away and keep them in boots. The snakes feel the
vibrations and depart for parts unknown at great speed.

Post by Rodney Long
I also understand that a gang of thugs can beat you to death, or rape
your daughter, and they won't let you have a gun to protect yourself, or
her, if you do have one and use it to save your life, they put you in jail.

Never needed a gun even though I can shoot with reasonable accuracy.
My average was over 90% when I was shooting,

I know only _one_ person who was raped and another who was subjected
to an attempted home invasion. Those sorts of crimes are rare enough
to merit front page stories when they do occur and they occur weeks
apart. Unlike the US, where they merely report how many murders
occurred that day, we can go for weeks between murders, mainly because
of the lack of the coward's weapon, a gun.

Gangs of thugs, thankfully, are rare and mostly controlled by the
police. Comes from having a vibrant economy and a good social security
system, although the latter does drive up taxes.

Post by Rodney Long
No thanks, I'll stay here, you can have all those poisonous snakes in
your yards, and let them bite your kids, instead of killing them before
it happens.

And I'll stay here and not be worried that I'm going to be killed by a
stray bullet falling out of the clear blue sky or that my front door
is going to be kicked in by some stranger who wants money for his drug
dependency.

Post by Rodney Long
Do you protect your spiders as well ? WHy not ? How about roaches,
flies, ants, and mosquitos

Some spiders, yes. It depends on how rare they are and if they are
native to Australia. I don't know of anyone who has been prosecuted
for killing a spider though. That would make the front page here.

[David Lesher]

Post by David Simpson

Post by Rodney Long
How many people a year down there die to snakes, and crocks ?

Snakes? About one every few years in spite of the fact that we have
the deadliest species on the planet and the greatest number of
venomous species.
Crocs? Maybe one or two a year. Some people are stupid enough to swim,
or play, where the croc can get at them. Crocs are extremely fast on
land ... for a very short distance.

Don't forget the sharks...

I have no doubt there are many folks envious of you & your sharks...
[re: H. Holt..]

[David Simpson]

On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 02:24:20 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher

Post by David Lesher

Post by David Simpson

Post by Rodney Long
How many people a year down there die to snakes, and crocks ?

Snakes? About one every few years in spite of the fact that we have
the deadliest species on the planet and the greatest number of
venomous species.
Crocs? Maybe one or two a year. Some people are stupid enough to swim,
or play, where the croc can get at them. Crocs are extremely fast on
land ... for a very short distance.

Don't forget the sharks...
I have no doubt there are many folks envious of you & your sharks...
[re: H. Holt..]

No evidence has been found that a shark was responsible for the
disappearance of Harold Holt. The waters where he was swimming are
renowned for being unpredictable and it is quite possible that he was
simply pulled under by a current, drowned and lodged under a rock.

Of course I believe that all our politicians should go swimming at
that beach at least once during their political career. If only one
percent disappeared it would improve the quality considerably.

[Jared]

Post by David Simpson
Don't try that in Australia. All snakes are protected here.

I wonder how much good that does to the average Brown Snake that
wanders into an Outback kitchen.

[Stephen Henning]

Post by Jared

Post by David Simpson
Don't try that in Australia. All snakes are protected here.

I wonder how much good that does to the average Brown Snake that
wanders into an Outback kitchen.

Outbacks are in the China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Philippines,
Guam Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, UK, Brazil, Venezuela,
Costa Rica, Mexico, Canada, USA, Bahamas, and Dominican Republic which
are not under Australian law.

There are two in Australia also but they don't have a "Brown Snake" but
do have the Brown Tree Snake and the Slate-Brown Snake in addition to
those two snakes they have the Children's Python, spotted Python, Pygmy
Python, Stimson's Python, Black-headed Python, Woma, D'alberti's Python,
Water Python, Western Olive Python, Olive Python, Australian Scrub
Python, Centralian Carpet Python, Rough-scaled Python, Oenpelli Rock
Python, Jungle Carpet python, Southwestern Carpet Python, Coastal Carpet
Python, Inland Carpet Python, Diamond Python, Northwestern Carpet
Python, Green Tree Python, Brown Tree Snake, Bockadam, Northern Tree
Snake, Common Tree Snake, Macleay's Water Snake, White-Bellied Mangrove
Snake, Wolf Snake, Richardson's Mangrove Snake, Slate-Grey Snake,
Slate-BrownSnake, Keelback or Freshwater Snake, Children's Python,
spotted Python, Pygmy Python, Stimson's Python, Black-headed Python,
Woma, D'alberti's Python, Water Python, Western Olive Python, Olive
Python, Australian Scrub Python, Centralian Carpet Python, Rough-scaled
Python, Oenpelli Rock Python, Jungle Carpet python, Southwestern Carpet
Python, Coastal Carpet Python, Inland Carpet Python, Diamond Python,
Northwestern Carpet Python, Green Tree Python, Brown Tree Snake,
Bockadam, Northern Tree Snake, Common Tree Snake, Macleay's Water Snake,
White-Bellied Mangrove Snake, Wolf Snake, Richardson's Mangrove Snake,
Slate-Grey Snake, Slate-BrownSnake, Keelback or Freshwater Snake, Common
Death Adder, Northern Death Adder, Desert Death Adder, Pigmy Copperhead,
Highlands Copperhead, Lowlands copperhead, Northern Dwarf Crowned Snake,
White-Crowned Snake, Dwarf Crowned Snake, Golden Crowned Snake, Lesser
Black Whip Snake, Black-Necked Whipsnake, Olive Whip Snake, Greater
Black (Papuan)Whip Snake, Yellow-Faced Whipsnake, Desert Whipsnake, Grey
Whip Snake, Collared Whip Snake, De Vis Banded Snake, Ornamental Snake,
Crowned Snake, White-Lipped Snake, Masters' Snake, Mustard Bellied
Snake, Lake Cronin Snake, Bardick, Little Brown Snake, Red-naped Snake,
Orange-naped Snake, Yellow-naped Snake, Dunmall's Snake, Brown-headed
Snake, Grey Snake, Black-bellied Swamp or Marsh Snake, Pale-headed
Snake, Broad-headed Snake, Stephens' Banded Snake, Krefft's Black Tiger
Snake, Tasmanian Tiger Snake, Peninsula Black Tiger Snake, Chappel
Island Tiger Snake, Western Tiger Snake, Eastern or Mainland Tiger
Snake, Inland Taipan, Taipan, False King Brown Snake, King Brown or
Mulga Snake, Butler's Snake, Collett's Snake, Blue-bellied or Spotted
Black Snake, Red-bellied Black Snake, Dugite, Speckled Brown Snake,
Peninsula Brown Snake, Ingram's Brown Snake, Ringed Brown Snake, Western
Brown Snake or Gwarder, Common or Eastern Brown Snake, Muller's Snake,
Carpentaria Whip Snake, Eastern Small-eyed Snake, Black-striped Snake,
Nullarbor Hooded Snake, Northern (Western) Small-eyed Snake, Northern
Desert Banded Snake, North-western Shovel-nosed Snake, Australian Coral
Snake, Desert Banded Snake, Western Black-naped Snake, Western
Black-striped Snake, Narrow-banded Burrowing Snake, Unbanded
Shovel-nosed Snake, Coastal Burrowing Snake, Dampierland Burrowing
Snake, Half-girdled Snake, Northern Shovel Nosed Snake, Half-girdled
Snake, Robust Burrowing Snake, Cape York Shovel-nosed Snake, Rosen's
Snake, Little Whip Snake, Black-headed Snake, Hooded Snake, Mallee
Black-backed Snake, Ord Curl Snake, Little Spotted Snake, Spectacled
Hooded Snake, Dwyer's Snake, Myall or Curl Snake, Rough-scaled Snake,
Bandy Bandy, Northern Bandy Bandy, Small-headed Blind Snake, Southern
Blind Snake, Blind Snake, Prong-snouted Blind Snake, Flowerpot Blind
Snake, Faint-striped Blind Snake, Centralian Blind Snake, Blind Snake,
Northern Blind Snake, Interior Blind Snake, Christmas Island Blind
Snake, Long-beaked Blind Snake, Top End Blind Snake, Pale-headed Blind
Snake, Kimberly Deep-soil Blind Snake, Kimberley Shallow-soil Blind
Snake, Murchison Blind Snake, Cape York Blind Snake, Robust Blind Snake,
Buff-snouted Blind Snake, Small-eyed Blind Snake, Groote Dwarf Blind
Snake, Blackish Blind Snake, Rotund Blind Snake, North-eastern Blind
Snake, Proximus Blind Snake, Blind Snake, Darwin Blind Snake, Sandamara
Blind Snake, Claw-snouted Blind Snake, Beaked Blind Snake, Brown-snouted
Blind Snake, Yampi Blind Snake, Yirrkala Blind Snake, Horned Sea Snake,
Short-nosed Sea Snake , Reef Shallows or Dubois's Sea Snake,
Stagger-banded or Spine-tailed Sea Snake, Leaf-scaled Sea Snake, Dusky
Sea Snake, Golden or Olive Sea Snake, Brown-lined Sea Snake, Stokes's
Sea Snake, Spectacled Sea Snake, Olive-headed Sea Snake, Turtle-headed
Sea Snake, Beaked Sea Snake, North-western Mangrove Sea Snake,
Black-ringed Mangrove Sea Snake, Black-headed Sea Snake, Sea Snake,
Dwarf Sea Snake, Slender-necked Sea Snake, Fine-spined Sea Snake,
Elegant Sea Snake, Geometrical Sea Snake, Slender Sea Snake, Plain Sea
Snake, Small-headed Sea Snake, Sea Snake, Black-banded Robust Sea Snake,
Sea Snake, Large-headed Sea Snake, Sea Snake, Spine-bellied Sea Snake,
Norther Mangrove Sea Snake, Yellow-bellied Sea Snake, Wide-faced Sea
Krait, Large Scaled Sea Krait, Arafura File Snake, and Little File Snake
which are all endemic. They also have others in captivity.

When walking in a forest in Australia and being careful not to step on a
snake, it is unnerving to look up and see a snake hanging from a tree
over your head. When I was describing a snake a saw climbing a tree and
asking if it was poisonous, they told me "they all are poisonous."

I don't see why one would want to shoot one of these snakes. That might
make its friends a little mad. Nothing is worse than a mad snake.

[David DeLaney]

Post by Stephen Henning
When I was describing a snake a saw climbing a tree and
asking if it was poisonous, they told me "they all are poisonous."

"Which ones aren't poisonous?" "... A few of the sheep."

Dave

[David Simpson]

Post by David DeLaney

Post by Stephen Henning
When I was describing a snake a saw climbing a tree and
asking if it was poisonous, they told me "they all are poisonous."

"Which ones aren't poisonous?" "... A few of the sheep."
Dave

What was meant was "Treat them all as poisonous. That way you won't
get bitten."

[Jared]

Post by Stephen Henning
There are two in Australia also but they don't have a "Brown Snake" but
do have the Brown Tree Snake and the Slate-Brown Snake in addition to
those two snakes they have the Children's Python...

I hate to argue with someone who obviously know his way around snakes
and outbacks but...

Post by Stephen Henning
...Olive Python...

That's almost brown.

Post by Stephen Henning
...Speckled Brown Snake,
Peninsula Brown Snake, Ingram's Brown Snake, Ringed Brown Snake, Western
Brown Snake or Gwarder, Common or Eastern Brown Snake...

Aww, come on - there are loads.

[Lon]

Post by Jared

Post by David Simpson
Don't try that in Australia. All snakes are protected here.

I wonder how much good that does to the average Brown Snake that
wanders into an Outback kitchen.

Depends on whether they already have enough sushi for the evening dinner
crowd. [1]

[1] Ob TWiaVBP... Outback is a rather generic chain of steakhouses where
at less the couple I've eaten at appear to be serving geriatric kangaroo
disguised as steak. The Bloomin Onion isn't too bad.

[TeaLady (Mari C.)]

Post by TOliver
Snakes and turtles are desperately people-shy. Most ponds
can be "safed" for routine swimming by arriving with a lot
of noise, carrying on and popping beer cans, the mild
screams of dates in insufficiently sized bathing wear being
groped, etc., but wise swimmers have been known to cut a
branch with which to beat the water before entering,
sending snappers and snakes a'flying.

When young, I had occasion to play in a lo cal creek and small
pond (really an old over-flow depression, slightly dammed up
to make a watering hole for larger farm animals, back when
there was a farm there) bordering several neighbors' yards and
mine, and an old 'pig waller' where we kept various carp, too
pretty to plant with the corn, caught out by a damn some miles
away. We had snappers, large-ish and small, in all three
watery places.

By the pig waller lived one old and ornery snapper, easily the
size of a volkswagon tire, which took to eating our pretty
fishies. That snapper would lurk on the edges of the waller,
looking like an old and mossy rock. Several times he was trod
upon by unwary or inattentive youths, and turned a neat trick
of lifting his backside while bending his head and neck up and
back, to catch the unsuspecting prize for supper. No matter
that the child was too large to consume - a good chunk of a
foot would have removed, enough for a good snapper snack.

In the creek bed lived another large snapper, prone to the
same trick, which we dug out one summer (my sis and I,
reminiscing about our sordid childhood while on vacation the
week before last, agreed that the official reason lay with a
neighbor's youngest child being just of an age to wander into
the creek but not understand about rocks that are really big
hungry snappers - the real reason was, well, 'cause it was
there) with some assistance from a parental unit once the
snapper was freed from its rocky and muddy embrace. I believe
the snapper was consumed for supper by the family of the
parental unit who attended the undertaking.

An old snapper, lazy and embedded in a snug mud-hole or rocky
stream bed, will not flee. It will just wait for something to
happen by, and, be it fish, stick or foot, will bite what it
can reach, in hope of a meal or morsel.

[Frank]

Post by TeaLady (Mari C.)
An old snapper, lazy and embedded in a snug mud-hole or rocky
stream bed, will not flee. It will just wait for something to
happen by, and, be it fish, stick or foot, will bite what it
can reach, in hope of a meal or morsel.
--

And they are certainly fearless, and they are certainly not slow. Long
necks, too.

[Nick Danger]

Several years ago, I came upon a rather large snapper taking a lazy stroll
across our street and decided I should help him get to the other side before
a driver less cautious than myself nailed him. It was a fairly easy process.
I just waved a stick in front of his face, and then used the stick to drag
him to safety. The neighbors still wonder why they never see me swimming in
the lake.

[TeaLady (Mari C.)]

Post by Nick Danger
Several years ago, I came upon a rather large snapper
taking a lazy stroll across our street and decided I should
help him get to the other side before a driver less
cautious than myself nailed him. It was a fairly easy
process. I just waved a stick in front of his face, and
then used the stick to drag him to safety. The neighbors
still wonder why they never see me swimming in the lake.

A few years back a snapper took a shine to the property where my
sis works. I was telling her of this tale, and she emailed me a
few pics of this great beast. It was a she, and per sis, laid
eggs on the property, and the later hatchlings were adored by
all before being relocated to an unnamed location.

I can email the pics, if anyone is interested, or y'all can wait
until I get my picture thing up and running. No pics of egg
laying, at least not that she sent me, but several good shots of
a ginormous snapper.

[Nick Danger]

Post by TeaLady (Mari C.)
A few years back a snapper took a shine to the property where my
sis works. I was telling her of this tale, and she emailed me a
few pics of this great beast. It was a she, and per sis, laid
eggs on the property, and the later hatchlings were adored by
all before being relocated to an unnamed location.
I can email the pics, if anyone is interested, or y'all can wait
until I get my picture thing up and running. No pics of egg
laying, at least not that she sent me, but several good shots of
a ginormous snapper.

If anyone has a need, I can send them a 20-minute video of a box turtle
digging a hole to lay her eggs in. After 20 minutes, I realized this could
end up taking a long time, and I was covered with mosquito bites, so I
decided to call it a night. I came out the next day and there was no trace
of any egg-laying activity there. If I hadn't taken some close-up pics of
the spot whilte the turtle was there, I wouldn't even have been able to find
the spot. I don't know if the eggs ever hatched. A few years earlier, I came
across a box turtle (maybe the same one?) at another spot nearby laying
eggs, but those had been dug up and presumably eaten by the next morning. If
I ever get the time, I'll probably make an animated GIF of this video.

[r***@vt.edu]

Post by qquito
I am located in southern Virginia.
Two years ago, I also saw otters showing up in the pond.
My question is: If one swims in such a pond, can one get bitten by
either snakes, or snapping turtles, or even otters? Are there any real
cases of swimmers who got bitten by these animals?

Well, just in today's Roanoke Times we have a report of an otter
biting a woman, though the game officials say it's rare.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/80246

Bill "otter know better than to swim in there" Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

[Bermuda999]

Post by qquito
I am located in southern Virginia. This afternoon, I saw a small snake
in the water near the edge of a pond while taking a walk there. The
snake swam near the edge and, for a few moments, got further away from
the pond edge and deeper into the water; then it was trying to get out
of the water and stopped half way out of the water. It then returned
back to the water and disappeared---maybe because it noticed that I was
approaching.
There are also quite a few turtles in the pond, and I have seen ones of
maybe 6 to 8 inches in size. Could these be snapping turtles?
Two years ago, I also saw otters showing up in the pond.
My question is: If one swims in such a pond, can one get bitten by
either snakes, or snapping turtles, or even otters? Are there any real
cases of swimmers who got bitten by these animals?

"If you're swimmin' in the creek
and something bites you on the cheek,
that's a moray."

[Michael Kuettner]

Post by Bermuda999

Post by qquito
I am located in southern Virginia. This afternoon, I saw a small snake
in the water near the edge of a pond while taking a walk there. The
snake swam near the edge and, for a few moments, got further away from
the pond edge and deeper into the water; then it was trying to get out
of the water and stopped half way out of the water. It then returned
back to the water and disappeared---maybe because it noticed that I was
approaching.
There are also quite a few turtles in the pond, and I have seen ones of
maybe 6 to 8 inches in size. Could these be snapping turtles?
Two years ago, I also saw otters showing up in the pond.
My question is: If one swims in such a pond, can one get bitten by
either snakes, or snapping turtles, or even otters? Are there any real
cases of swimmers who got bitten by these animals?

"If you're swimmin' in the creek
and something bites you on the cheek,
that's a moray."

If you jump in the pool
and a fish starts to drool,
that's a moray...

Vultures sing, dingalingaling,
oh - a moray

If you're swimming about
and a fish bites your snout,
it's a moray...

Cheers,

Michael "are earworms used as bait ?" Kuettner